Heretic, Hexen, Hecatomb.

Talk about Hexen in general, books, fanfic, the original games etc..
umyeung9
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Heretic, Hexen, Hecatomb.

Postby umyeung9 » Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:08 am

D'sparil = Heretic
Korax = Hexen
Eidolon = Hecatomb

Raven got sold to Activision who wanted $$$ made Hecatomb = Hexen II + Heretic II to milk the franchise.

It would have been loads better if Hecatomb existed, and Hexen II and Heretic II never existed.

Hecatomb is supposed to be like this

Class:Good/Neutral/Bad
Fighter:Paladin/Warrior/Berserker
Mage:Archmage/Wizard/Necromancer
Thief:Rogue/Thief/Assassin

You start in a big castle, and you do stuff.

http://www.johnromero.com/wiki/index.php/Hecatomb


In a way, Hexen II was supposed to continue the Cronos Hexen story arc, and Hecatomb, and its sequels were supposed to be the Thyrion story arc, although it wasn't called Thyrion or Eidolon when they use the Hecatomb name.

Same thing with Doom, Quake, and Quake II. Doom, Doom II, and Doom 3 is supposed to be demons from hell. Quake, Quake II, Quake III whatever, was supposed to be about the lovecraftian myths and stuff. The name that id can't get rights to was supposed to be the strogg story arc, which became quake 2, and the sequel was quake 4. But since the game with the lovecraftian myths and the strogg story arc played similarly, the quake names stuck.

Similarly, they changed Hecatomb's gameplay too similar to Hexen, that they called it Hexen II.

So for every futuristic shooter universe id makes, there is a medieval fantasy shooter raven makes. Each of them is connected. One has all 3 heroes meet up in the arena eternal, the other has the final bosses as siblings.

Doom = Heretic Both were shareware/registered releases that got commerical releases in the future
Doom II = Hexen Commercial release of above games before they got their own commercial releases
Quake = Hexen II Uses Quake engine has 4 difficulty levels that are accessible without use of console
Quake II = Heretic II Uses id tech 2, 3 difficulty levels accessible without use of console

Note that the gameplay isn't completely equivalent.

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Re: Heretic, Hexen, Hecatomb.

Postby mr.math » Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:27 pm

For me, Hexen 2 is the worst game from Heretic/Hexen franchise. Heretic 2 was successful in things that were dissapointment in Hexen 2(empty dull levels, poor ambience) But it was not as fun as old Heretic/Hexen and had pretty boring monsters. So I think Hecatomb could have been cool. Combination of Heretic2 and Hexen2 could have been best game in the series.

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Re: Heretic, Hexen, Hecatomb.

Postby umyeung9 » Sun Jun 27, 2010 1:12 am

blame activision that hecatomb never existed. Also blame either id for making Romero leave, or blame Romero for leaving.

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Re: Heretic, Hexen, Hecatomb.

Postby deadite4 » Sun Jun 27, 2010 3:02 am

It's not like Romero was the end all be all of id softare. Sure he had a large part on things, but the games were a team colaberation. Just look at what Romero has done after id software.
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Re: Heretic, Hexen, Hecatomb.

Postby Caffeine Freak » Sun Jun 27, 2010 8:37 am

deadite4 wrote:It's not like Romero was the end all be all of id softare. Sure he had a large part on things, but the games were a team colaberation. Just look at what Romero has done after id software.


Daika--- er, maybe I don't need to finish that sentence.
Yep, time for another Doom fix.

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Re: Heretic, Hexen, Hecatomb.

Postby mr.math » Sun Jun 27, 2010 8:52 am

Romero was more designer...Daikatana was definitely not that bad. Medieval part had some really great level design, ideas and atmosphere.
I think ID went down when Romero left also. How many games they produced in the last decade? Also sequels to Quake were....less fun for me.
It is the rule, when publishing company buy out developers, it always end up with negative results. Raven, Westwood, Bioware...

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Re: Heretic, Hexen, Hecatomb.

Postby Caffeine Freak » Sun Jun 27, 2010 8:02 pm

Romero has been gone from id for almost 14 years now. They've produced a number of games since he left.

Also, the scale of games has increased greatly during that time. Doom took about a year to create, Quake took about a year and a half.

In today's industry, completing a full-scale FPS in that window of time simply isn't possible, unless you are making a sequel or expansion, with the engine and programming already in full gear, and many of the existing media assets already available, like L4D2, for instance.

id has traditionally started from scratch every time with a new engine (admittedly maybe not the best marketing plan), and when you take into account the amount of polishing they do with their games, it's understandable that they take longer than most developers. Although Rage is taking a long time.

Keep in mind though, the size of id has tripled since they released Doom 3, so that should translate into more frequent releases in the future.
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Re: Heretic, Hexen, Hecatomb.

Postby sarjxxx » Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:06 am

Caffeine Freak wrote:Keep in mind though, the size of id has tripled since they released Doom 3, so that should translate into more frequent releases in the future.


Especially considering they now belong to Bethseda :( I always thought that of all the awesome software companies, we'd never have to see id sell out but I guess all good things must end... Hopefully it won't ruin their products and they'll be able to hold on to their "id-ness"...

I am excited for Rage but honestly I don't think my PC will be able to run it and after Quake 4 I absolutely refuse to play FPS on consoles....I gotta have a keyboard and mouse or not at all...

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Re: Heretic, Hexen, Hecatomb.

Postby deadite4 » Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:57 pm

pretty neat interview at http://www.nowgamer.com/features/1308/r ... -interview

discusses a little bit about the selling and why they felt it was really needed in today's game market in order to create large AAA titles.
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Re: Heretic, Hexen, Hecatomb.

Postby S-Priest » Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:07 pm

It's a pity Hecatomb never came to fruition. By the sounds of the concept, it was complete and original, unlike the games Raven made since it was bought out by Activision. It'd be quite the hybrid RPG-shooter, Hexen II actually misses several features (the characters were meant to have three abilities each, but they were cut in a rush to release the game next to Quake II - John Romero told me that several years ago, the chat log must still be somewhere around on an old drive, we spoke about Hecatomb too). So, say, the Necromancer's third ability was animating dead. Without his third ability, he's a handicapped mage clone.

Daikatana was actually a good game. It's just become the proverbial scapegoat and beating-boy. It's a symptom of slander that nobody who bashes it has ever played it. It was a grand concept, four hubs in four different eras with different weapons. Pretty close to Hexen, in some ways (one of the ancient Greek weapons is a serpent staff, it even hissed a little instead of blinking as in Hexen). There were difficulties during development, which of course were exaggerated by the press; John had the bad luck of hiring inexperienced artists (some made 2000*2000 arrow projectile textures at first, just to give you an idea) and overall it was a big startup mess, but eventually Ion Storm had got it sorted out. Really it was more a typical case of trying to do it "happy-go-lucky", naively, with the inevitable difficulties when it didn't work right away.

The reason why cleric has a mace for his weapon (somebody was complaining about that in a post) is because he also has the superweapon, the Wraithverge, which is the best weapon in the game. So they sought to "balance it out" by giving him the worst weapon too. All this stumbling through the couple episodes is eventually rewarded with the big weapon 4 which is the Hexen equivalent of a BFG. And it's not like his other two weapons are any bad either, the serpent staff certainly beats the axe and frost shards, and the firestorm is a good average weapon 3.
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Re: Heretic, Hexen, Hecatomb.

Postby S-Priest » Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:17 pm

The trouble with Id, and to an extent Raven, is that they never could create a game thrilling enough without John Romero. Look at Quake and Quake II; Quake sucked you in, Quake II is more of a generic crate-and-corridors shooter. Dull. Heretic and Heretic II have more or less the same relationship (though of course better), Heretic sucked you in and required hundreds of replays; Heretic II is more like a movie, you play it once, you'll stop halfway through and drop it the next time. Nice art and all that, but it just doesn't feel like a coherent world, more like a showoff piece of art. It still feels and plays more or less like a game in the same universe, but it just doesn't have the tactical thrill or level design or the same gameplay. It's too simple; life's in details, and Heretic II doesn't have the details of gameplay or the haunting level design of Heretic.

So John Romero being absent from either company as a producer is a big hit. Hexen was the last game he was fully involved with. Hexen II was still built with some of his assistance (and on the Hecatomb concept), previous to his leaving Id for good, and it shows - it's a thrilling game in some ways, though it still is lacking compared to the full concept, which was wonderful. It's not complete though, and you can feel it in the game.

Frankly, Id without Romero had just been an engine developer, ever since Quake II. Quake, for all its primitiveness, is still a thrilling game. With Romero gone, Id stooped so low as to develop Quake III - a botfest. But the engine went on to power quite a few good games.
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